After yet another conversation (If you can call it that) with a so called 'Child Of God' I have been infuriated and the keys on my Macbook are paying the price now by being hammered down with rather inappropriate brutality.
It really has started to get to me that these 'believers' keep calling me a closed minded 'Hater'. I'm going to be even more specific here. Its the Christians! Muslims seem to accept what you are and generally listen to your views before getting annoyed (If at all) and putting their point across. Christians on the other hand seem to be very childish. At least most of them are. Pardon the ethnocentric comments for now...
Closed minded. That's what I keep being called. This seems to be the most commonly played card in their hand. Lets break this down.
Definition:
A closed mind (or closed-minded) is someone unreceptive to new ideas or information.
(This is a definition from wikipedia.org.... Not the best source of information in my opinion but it will serve. If you want something to be accepted by the masses as a truth, just post it on there.)
So what the hell makes me closed minded? I have read the Bible, Qu'ran and Tripitaka and given them all alot of time. I was raised a Christian so I did give that a chance. So that just about covers me... I have given these ideas a chance. Its alot of believers who are the bloody closed minded ones.
Now, when i have a religious debate with someone I try and argue my points rationally and logically. I have been attacked because of this on the grounds that I cannot be argueing logically or rationaly about religion. Wrong! Maybe YOU can't but i can! Anything can be arued rationally and logically if it has a valid point but if it can't, then thats obviously a stupid idea and i don't see how anyone can believe it.
Its alot of these people who come accros as closed minded to me. The scream this at me and then proceed to argue the point with comments like "You just need faith." Now a statement like that is not a good arguement... Its a childish point, that's what it is. Another of my favourite ones is "You'll know we were right when you burn in hell" now that is just stupid. That may be true but what does it have to do with anything? Here is a prime example:
Me:
"In hundreds of years we have not seen any obvious acts of God? Why?"
Believer:
"You will burn in hell!"
Uhm yeah... Burn in hell i will...
All im going to say is if believers want to discuss these things, then lets do it like we are older than a five year old with an attention span of a goldfish. They say sceptics are insensetive and rude but hey, i think it's the other way around...
My keyboard has suffered enough....
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Here are a couple of videos that compare the open vs closed minded that you might enjoy.
Link
Link
Thanks for those... Great clips, highly recommend watching them. The first especially.
that is always annoying! and one of the biggest put offs about religion...
were they catholic? LoL
Oh and the links are awesome! decided to embed (the 1st one) on my blog, as a "Chaser of logic after my double shot of religion"...lol
They weren't Catholic surprisingly enough. But they were Christian...
It's not religion we should be blaming, it's people who want to dispute things and yet not argue their points fairly.
It's a brilliant link. I found myself nodding to it and banging the table in approval...
You're absolutely right. I think they just don't understand what close-minded is. Not believing in bigfoot is not close-minded. Continuing your disbelief when a body is found is.
You could even say they don't want to understand what it is. Its just a very easy typical statement to make...
"In hundreds of years we have not seen any obvious acts of God? Why?"
Interesting.
"All im going to say is if believers want to discuss these things, then lets do it like we are older than a five year old with an attention span of a goldfish."
Sure; invitation accepted. Let's get started, friend.
What's the topic?
"In hundreds of years we have not seen any obvious acts of God? Why?"
Hmmm...
If you're athiest you don't believe in God. So, are you really looking for God's movements? Even when you see 'obvious acts of God', are you going to identify/acknowlegde them as such? I'm guessing not.
I'll say someting's an 'obvious act of God'; you'll beg to differ, b/c you're not a believer (per your claim, not mine). Either way, it's set up so you'll win the argument. Convenient.
Why ever would someone call you close-minded? ;) Not that I am, of course.
Just curious...
I know this wasn't specifically directed at me, but since I'm part of your generalization...
"If you're athiest [sic] you don't believe in God. So, are you really looking for God's movements? Even when you see 'obvious acts of God', are you going to identify/acknowlegde them as such? I'm guessing not."
Why not? What about being an atheist would prevent someone from identifying phenomena? What you're describing is actually the effect of faith. I know I don't need to explain how faith can cause a person to deny evidence.
You presumably don't believe in unicorns. Is there something about being an a-unicornist that would prevent you from changing your mind if you found and captured a baby unicorn in the woods?
"I'll say someting's an 'obvious act of God'; you'll beg to differ, b/c you're not a believer (per your claim, not mine). Either way, it's set up so you'll win the argument. Convenient."
If something is OBVIOUS, there wouldn't be an argument—unless there is a BELIEF getting in the way. Atheism involves no belief.
I would demonstrate that you may have a different idea of what "obvious" means, but you failed to give any examples of these obvious acts.
Well hey there, Guy! Thanks for the response.
"Why not? What about being an atheist would prevent someone from identifying phenomena?"
Interesting question. I drew a clear distinction betwn. identifying 'phenomena' & "identifying/acknowledging [obvious acts of God] as such". An athiest would, presumably, never identify any 'phenomena' as an act of God. No? So, it doesn't particularly matter that I failed to give examples (& I could give you scads just from my own small life, btw). An athiest would refute me no matter what I said...
Please correct me if I'm off base here.
"You presumably don't believe in unicorns. Is there something about being an a-unicornist that would prevent you from changing your mind if you found and captured a baby unicorn in the woods?"
Now, Guy, this is just silly & condescending to my intelligence. You don't really mean to do that, do you? Next you'll haul out Sasquatch, then Nessie, right?
You've been at this a while. I have faith that you can do better than this, contrary to the evidence I've seen. ;)
"I know I don't need to explain how faith can cause a person to deny evidence."
Perhaps. But in my experience, faith is a door into a life of overwhelming possiblity & freedom. But you need not take my word for it.
Got a day to get started & kids to attend to. Hope yours is a good one.
I didn't bring up unicorns to simply compare belief in unicorns to belief in gods (I usually use leprechauns for that). I was using them as an example of something that you don't believe in to draw an analogy with your take on atheism. I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence—though frankly, I wouldn't care that much if I did (it's not like I got personal).
Anyway, we could go back and forth forever, but the comment section on someone else's blog is probably not the best forum for this. That's my fault. Have a good day, mine will have to be a good night, here in Japan.
"...wasn't trying to insult your intelligence—though frankly, I wouldn't care that much if I did..."
Ouch. Now I'm wounded. :)
"...we could go back and forth forever, but the comment section on someone else's blog is probably not the best forum for this."
Interesting. I thought that's what blogs were for. (You're welcome to come to mine, if this is too uncomfortable. And I do mean that.)
"I was using [unicorns] as an example of something that you don't believe in to draw an analogy with your take on atheism."
I don't mean to keep you up late...
We're talking about our author's question, "In hundreds of years we have not seen any obvious acts of God? Why?" My point: if one doesn't believe in something (as atheists profess not to believe), then one won't be looking for it, & wouldn't know it (or would deny it) even when one came upon it...I just found it interesting that our author asks a question whose answer assumes evidence of something in which he claims not to believe.
If your point about unicorns is different from above, I apologize that I'm missing it entirely. Could you elaborate please?
I dunno, I just kind of feel like I do when I have a conversation with somebody on a mutual friend's Facebook wall. You're probably right, I guess this is part of the point of blogging.
"if one doesn't believe in something (as atheists profess not to believe), then one won't be looking for it, & wouldn't know it (or would deny it) even when one came upon it"
(Emphasis added, of course.) This is the part I take contention with (I'll give you "won't be looking for it") and what I was trying (and failing) to address with the unicorns. I just don't see why you would assume that.
Now I must go to bed. Feel free to have the last word (at least for the next 20 hours or so).
Looks like my little technology free weekend made me miss out on quite an opportunity to ask some difficult questions.
Well, Suzannah, before you dismiss me as a hard headed atheist who will never change my beliefs you might be interested to know that i actually do believe in "God". Just not the supernatural being most other people do. You might be interested to take a look at one of my previous posts that is called "God" or something along those lines. This will clear things a little (maybe confuse you more but hey).
As for being closed minded, i would just say im very difficult. But is that wrong? I always had problems in school because when a teacher said something like "1+1=2" I never just took notes and said OK, i said "Why, Prove it"... Same goes for God.
Random question that has been bothering me. Jesus had three miracles on earth right? So why waste them turning water into wine for example?
Scrap the miracles question. What happened to the vengeful God of the old testament?
-There's nothing wrong with discussing things in the comments section. Think that's what its for...
Hi Mull~
"before you dismiss me as a hard headed atheist who will never change my beliefs"
I didn't dismiss you as such. I was/am curious to know why someone who's atheist would be looking for evidence of God. (I don't know you & you don't know me,right?) My assumption, since 'confessions of an atheist' is part of your blog's title, is that you identify yourself as such. My apologies for misunderstanding. I will absolutely look @ the post you're speaking of (I'll search, but could you give me a clue as to the post-date?).
"you might be interested to know that i actually do believe in 'God'."
Super. Me too!
"As for being closed minded..."
Oops! I didn't call you that. Apparently someone w/ not such nice manners did. My apologies by proxy...
"i would just say im very difficult."
Yes, well; there's another thing we have in common! This could be the beginning of a very nice discussion, Mull.
RE: Miracles
Jesus did far more than 3, & his disciples also did them in His name. It wasn't like a Genie w/ a lamp. (That's a joke; I'm not making fun of you. Just so you know...)
My understanding (which is limited, btw), is that Jesus honored the Wedding celebration in Cana w/ that miracle first, to honor His mother. Also, b/c the Host was running out of wine (which was a MAJOR social faux pas). Jesus was responding to this person's & the community's need to celebrate a valuable human milestone.
A footnote in the Life App. Study Bible (just so you don't think I'm spouting off), says that Jesus was beginning His crucial mission (save the world), but "took time to attend a wedding & take part in its festivities. We may be tempted to think we shouldn't take time out from our 'important' work for social occasions. But maybe these occasions are part of our mission. Jesus valued these wedding festivities b/c they involved people, & Jesus came to be w/ people."
Another thought is that He honored a wedding w/ such emphasis @ the beginning of His ministry b/c marriage is the human 'metaphor' for His relationship to His Bride -- the Church -- w/ whom He will reconcile @ the close of history...whenever that'll be...
Just some thoughts.
Hello, Susannah
http://mullmeister.blogspot.com/2009/07/god.html
There is the link to the God explanation.
"I didn't dismiss you as such. I was/am curious to know why someone who's atheist would be looking for evidence of God."
Sorry, i guess with all the flak i have received of late from Christians, well one in particular, I am also becoming one of the people i dislike who jumps to conclusions. Thanks for the wake up call.
Perhaps you will understand why i look for such evidence after you see the God explanation. For me it's more of a psychological thing.
And i generalize myself as an atheist because it's where i fit closest into. But you may have noticed a question mark on the title. I don't really know what i am. Maybe you can tell me?
As for being closed minded, i realize now you didn't. Yet again hangover from previous conversations. Scary how i'm becoming just like the people i dislike...
Seems like this could be a very educative discussion. Can i ask what denomination of Christianity you fall into? Assuming you are Christian?
"What happened to the vengeful God of the old testament?"
God hasn't changed.
IMHO, we (esp. Americans) have feminized Christianity to the point that we don't know Him as a God of Justice, Strength, Power & Awe, (all masculine qualities, generally) and that's a shame. It's one of the many negative byproducts of Feminism, but that's another discussion.
Because it makes us feel better & (thus in control, perhaps) kinder, gentler, we paint Jesus as some weak, emaciated character who was a push-over. Not so, IMO. At least not the Jesus I know. Not the God I love, respect & trust. Other than that, Mull, I don't know.
Very, very interesting questions; thank you.
RE:RE: Miracles.
Thanks for clearing the number up... Wonder why i assumed there were 3? Maybe i should stop reading bedtime stories concerning Aladin to the kids before I discuss these things...
That makes sense. Could we also interpret this as Jesus trying to tell us to take time to enjoy the good things in life as well. (He took time out of his world saving mission to attend a wedding.)
"God hasn't changed"
(Now this is from a neutral perspective. This isn't an 'Atheist' trying to shoot you down... Not that you strike me as the type to make those assumptions)
So since it is the same God ( This has always confused me because it felt like Christians were discrediting their own older words) we could say that perhaps humans have 'toned' down God's character to make God more accommodating to the changing times and perhaps because people no-longer want to be led out of fear and rather love and comfort?
Thanks for the logical thoughtful answers. Much prefered to the standard "Believe what you want, Jesus isn't a show-off, have faith"
Great link, Mull. You'll see I left some comments there...No problem on the 'conclusions' drawn; you don't know me, etc.
As far as denomination - United Methodist, but a bit more 'evangelical' in flavor than most (I mean that in the best way possible, since the term gets a bad rap sometimes).
United Methodist... Interesting, personally i don't know too much about that but i'm going to look into that now. Haven't really been exposed to United Methodists before. Probably because there are not many in Uganda where i was previously living.
Ill take a look at the other comments now.
Uganda - wow.
Mull, I do want to tell you that I'm packing for a week long trip today, so if I don't respond to other comments, it's NOT because I'm ditching our conversation.
I'll be gone for about a week, but I'll be back. (Ever since "Terminator", I've always wanted to say that...) Ha!
Yeah... Uganda...
Well, i replied on the God post as well. Enjoy your trip and i look forward to picking this up again in two weeks. (When you get back ill have just left on a week long hiking trip).
Haha, Nice
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